A Bear, A Wolf & A Fox AKA All Stories are Spiritual Stories with Conner Habib

In the last episode of this season, Conner Habib, author, podcaster and my kid brother, shares his first spiritual experience, why looking for spiritual signs can get tricky, some tips (and non- tips) on cultivating a spiritual path, and why all stories are spiritual stories.

Listen to Conner's podcast, Against Everyone with Conner Habib on all podcast apps. 
Check out his website at connerhabib.com and his Patreon site here. 

Transcript

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Hi, I'm Laura Scappaticci, the host of That Good May Become a bi weekly podcast that explores and reveal spiritual experiences in our everyday lives. I created this podcast to fight the forces of materialism along with you.

Yeah, not joking. Anyway, this episode is the fifth one in my season about self knowledge. And I'm so happy to have interviewed Connor Habib. Connor Habib is the author of the upcoming horror novel Hawk Mountain that's out this June in the US and UK, and he's also the host of Against Everyone With Connor Habib. One more thing you should know about Connor is that he's my brother. We've both been on a spiritual path since our childhood. And though our paths went in different directions, they sort of ended up in the same spot. One of the things he says in this podcast is that wherever you find the challenge in your life, or the reversal of your being is the deepest spiritual practice, Connor and I are hoping to pair up at the end of each season of That Good May Become just to explore what we've talked about for the last several episodes and to have a sibling perspective on spiritual paths. Let me know what you think. And thanks for tuning in. Please subscribe.

Welcome to that good may become with me, Laura Scappaticci, where we learn to illuminate the esoteric in our everyday lives.

Hey, Connor.

Hello.

You're far away from me. And you used to be very close. And I don't like it.

For a long time, though, I have to say I mean, right. Yeah, we live kind of far apart since you left for college. 

I mean, at least you're someplace I want to visit, you know? Yeah. So okay, you're over in Ireland. I'm here in California. I don't know what it's like for you. But there's a lot of ash in the air right now. Like, Christopher's car was like, covered in ash. And everyone should know, we're brother and sister. So we we lived in the same place for a long time. Maybe that's all we could endure, you know, like 14 or 17 years of it?

Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

So I wanted to have you on at the end of each season.   I'm just ending a short season on self knowledge. And I think in all seasons, people will be sharing their spiritual biographies in the beginning of the episode. So you and I have had some crazy, interesting experiences in our childhood, I think. And we're really fascinated with like  ouija boards. And do you remember what was that girl's name? That would come over and she was like, there's a poltergeist in your closet. 

Oh, Amy. Amy. 

Oh, my gosh, yes, Amy. Yeah. So she scared me. I was scared of that closet. She's probably right, because I was terrified of that closet because it was in my bedroom.

But these are kind of funny spiritual experiences. But over time, it's very strange. We both ended up sort of walking down the same spiritual path. We can talk about that later, too. But go ahead. Can you share something?

Yeah, well, I guess if I'm going to be on again in the future. I'll start with, I guess I'll start with my first memory.Which is a spiritual experience. My very first memory.

I wasn't awake. So my first memories of a dream. And in the dream, I was eaten by a fox who was eaten by a wolf who was eaten by bear. And when the bury the wolf that either Fox that Amy I woke up, and I remember tottering down the hall to mom and dad's bedroom.And I was just freaked out. I actually don't know how I opened the door. I guess my door must have been open because I was so little.But I remember then they like put me between them. And I fell asleep again. 

And that's a really intense dream. You were eaten like four times, essentially. Yeah, there's a lot of devouring that happened. So yeah, that's funny. I remember there was like a lock on the outside of your door when you were older, because you would sleep walk and you would walk around and I wonder if that's connected to all these crazy dreams. So what does that mean to you now? I mean, I think the wolf part I'm not so sure about although I was very scared of wolves, actually scared of wolves and foxes as a kid.

But now if this sort of Fox imagery comes out. Constantly for me, especially in Ireland, let me back up a little bit. First of all, it's strange that My first memory is not in this world, right? So, I mean, I think an ad that I remember waking up into this world now, you know, I'm sure had experiences before this, but as far as an experience that stuck with me, that's it. And so I think there's that, which is interesting. It's interesting that they're all these animals consuming me. And then, you know, in dreams, we can interpret, interpret some of the events in dreams is happening backwards. So in some ways, it was the bear, expelling the wolf expelling the fox expelling me.

And so I think there's a lineage of events there in this life and past lives, maybe that are just sort of, you know, finishing up her making their final rounds now in this go round. But that's all speculation. I mean, but I do find meaning in those animals, you know?

 Hmm. You know, it's, I don't know, there's so many things to say about that. One sort of question I have is, you know, around self knowledge, like you said, it's all speculation. But you can create meaning from that speculation. And that's what you've done with this experience and understanding it. And then you said something about past lives to which we've not talked about on this on the show yet. Yeah. And then we should, we should talk about that. And then just to kind of bring it back to something about our childhood, I remember going to see the movie et with you. Do you remember this? We were in? Like, I remember I ran out? Yeah, people I ran? Yes. Because you thought there was a fox that was gonna come out in that first scene, where Drew Barrymore and whoever played Elliott, they're like out in the yard, and he's alone. And it's... That's like, in the shed, but you thought there was a fox? And I didn't know I didn't know. 

No, there's there's a scene where he is running through the field. Oh, and I ran out of the I ran out of the theater. And I remember, the usher came out to me. And I remember saying, she's a teenage girl...And she was like, Oh, it's a little bit of a scary movie. And I said, there's a fox in that field. I know there's a fox in that.

I sort of remember you wrecked the movie for me in the beginning, not towards the middle.
And then we were like, addicted to Reese's Pieces after that, because we couldn't have chocolate. 

But so what is the fox to you now? And are there more foxes in Ireland or something? 

It's just like, Oh, I mean, there are foxes everywhere. Here. I see them. If you walk around at night, you commonly see them around the streets of Dublin, you can hear them screaming in the night.For me, they're they're good. Now, they sort of turned inside out from something that was something that was threatening in the past. And something that's been positive where I know, if I see a physical one, I know I'm on the right track. And if I sort of intuit the the presence of one I know not to go in the direction, that it's that it's static. I know that sounds strange. And it would take a lot to explain why that is. So I'm not going to but yeah, there's sort of direction pointers. In our in Ireland, especially. And I think a lot of people here have strange experiences with foxes and and other animals here because of their deep, mythic quality. You know, that's not I wouldn't say it's an unbroken line of touching the myths and touching the, you know, these magical experiences that people have with the animals till now. But there is cultural memory still.

Right? Yeah. So how did you get to this place where you, I'm not asking you how you figured it out. But I guess what I'm about you know, the, when you intuit the fox is like the wrong direction. How do you get to this place of self knowledge? And so I think I talked about this in a blog I wrote where when I left my position recently, that was like, my most favorite job in the world. I just had this feeling and I knew it was time to go, but I had sort of cultivated this trust in my spiritual, the spiritual messages I was getting. Yeah. So what was that cultivation like for you?

Yeah, I mean, that's interesting. I'm not sure if I can answer that question. But that is exactly it --you become like the confidence in these things. Is it capacity, I know that part of it is giving yourself over to it.  You have to, you know, I mean, it is like love in a way, you have to give yourself up to the trust of it. And it becomes seamless in a way, like, there's no longer a feeling of fear. I mean, you know, maybe a good way to describe it to people that don't understand is like, you know, people go through their lives, I know I did, but you go through your life making signs, where you see something strange, or you know, maybe you see a dead bird on the ground, or you see a cloud shaped a certain way, or maybe someone says something strange to you. And you try to like, cram meaning into it. And I think it's really important for a lot of us, I wouldn't say everybody, but for a lot of us to say I don't have to make signs.

So one is sort of giving up the creation of signs. And then therefore, you have room for the reception and attentiveness to the signs that are given when they come. And if you don't receive any, it's fine. That just means you're just living your life, and it's okay.

And then when you do get the signs, you know, you give yourself over to them. You know, like, I think people, it's like, when you flip a coin, you're like, Okay, if it says heads, I'll do this, if it says tails, I'll do this, and then it's, you know, Tails, and you're like, I was really hoping it would land on the head to either flip the coin again, or you just decided to discard the coin toss, it would sort of be like saying, but really wholeheartedly like I'm going to do with the coin says and not forcing it. But just deciding You know what, I'm just gonna give myself over to this for real. And that actually changes the result of what happens when you flip the coin, because it just imagine the coin landing in your hand. And when it lands, it has a sort of

bright and powerful, almost a shockwave, but like a resonance as it lands, rather than having all this emptiness in it that you have to decide, you know, after the coin lands to project what you want into it, or to discard it, or whatever. It's actually you've done the process before the coin lands in your hand. So it's something like that. You don't have to make signs and when the signs appear, you know, because you've made yourself ready for them. That's, it's all kind of vague to someone that doesn't have that experience. I mean, I know when I would listen to people talk about stuff like this before, I'd be like, how could you ever know or whatever, but it starts to change. And it becomes, I don't know, maybe a sense organ or something in you.

And that's not to say, I don't have plenty of doubt, and I don't make sense... I do but still, but I I try to I try to get a handle on that now. 

You know, yeah, I understand what you're saying. Because I feel like from the meditation and the just the tuning in, which is part of self knowledge, and some of the exercises of equanimity, and open mindedness. And, you know, this, there's a thinking exercise for clear thinking. I think like, it kind of clears out the other stuff that would wish for you to create a sign and it allows for the signs to show up. So really great way of explaining it the way that you just did because I had a listener write to me on Instagram, and she was she was talking about and I think the next season is going to be on connecting with the dead. But she was talking about the signs that she would see once her one of her loved ones had passed away and how it would just keep flying with these white feathers, which just keeps like showing up and showing up. And so I think that's very different than they get a pendulum and they're like, say show me my Yes, show me my No. Right. And then yeah, I think that that's great and fun. And I mean, people do it with tarot cards too, right? Like you, you put the cards out and you like look for the thing you're looking for. But instead of looking you're you're receiving and that was different and you have to prepare the ground to be able to perceive that's what I think this question about self knowledge is because of the preparation, and maybe some people just come in prepared. I think that that's also true, but I've certainly had to do a lot of preparation to be able to receive voice or to receive a sign or to receive a sense of something. What's your preparation been like in life? Besides writing horror novel. 

A crucible of suffering. I mean, I have had a lot of stuff in my life that I've had to overcome. I mean, I think I think that, um, yeah, I mean, that's such a big question, because you're just asking, like, every everything when he's, you know, like, it's like asking somebody how they learn to walk or learn to read or whatever, like, I can point to certain things.

My preparation, like, it changes all the time, right? It changes every it changes every year changes with who I am and what I changed to be and, and all that. So, I mean, I think there's not really an answer to your....

You did just answer it in a way though, because I feel like the it changes with who you are, is part of that answer. Because for some time, like, I remember, we talked about an anthroposophy there's the six basic exercises, the probably exercises in every spiritual path that you do every day, or you do over the course of a year or whatever. And I remember asking you a while ago, like, so do you still do those, you're like, um, I've been doing those forever. And so they're not part of my daily practice. Now, because I have other things that I'm doing as part of my daily practice, I think that's important for people to understand, like, just because you meditate for a year doesn't mean you won't incorporate something else or drop that and do something else. So as part of any it's a refinement process to to know, what are the things that I should continue to do every day, like walk outside at night and look at the stars was something I was doing for a long time. I can't see them now, though, because it was smoke. But though there was one little star outside my window last night, I just want to give a shout out to that star in case the stars listening.

And thank you for sharing.

But yeah, so it can it can change over time. I think I'm asking you, because I'm wondering if people are listening, like what what tips in this quest for self knowledge, like Know thyself, to thine own self be true? Like these kind of phrases? We have them all over the place? You know, what? What might you say to them?

Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's, it's complicated, because the answer really is that like, nothing works for everybody. I mean, nothing works for everybody, and what you decide on or what your your life leads you to the things that you need to do.

Um, it's nice, you know, so it's not, it's just not the same, like, you can give people all those tips, like even those basic exercises, someone will excel at one, and not get much from another. And then a year later, it'll reverse or, you know, some people just don't resonate with astrology, or the Kabbalah or whatever it is. And so, you know, and some people don't really do any sort of overt spiritual work, what you would call spiritual work, but they're just really kind people. And it seems like they've got kind of a pass in life, and, you know, just to enjoy it, or whatever. And so I think there's no, I always hesitate to sort of give people like, Oh, I got here by doing this, or I got here by doing this, because it's just different for everybody. And, you know, I think the more important thing is like, what's in front of you, you know, and what might it take to contend with this thing that's in front of you, whatever the challenge is, and that is just different for everybody. I mean, if someone has a breakup or a divorce, or a death, or, you know, whatever, every, like the things that someone reaches for, you know, it will just be different for each person what's most effective? And I think that that's probably frustrating for people to hear.

Because they want the answer is, you know, I mean, in some things, okay, it's like,
you know, everybody should drink a lot of water or whatever. But like these, these, you know, there are tips that end up, funneling themselves into the material world, in a way and therefore are consistent. But if we're not talking about materialism, we have a different set of rules.

But we have different, we have a different sort of contour of powers, like in front of us. And so we can't just prescribe, it just doesn't work. 

Well, I, one of the questions I wanted to ask you is, you know, I have people listening that are saying,

I can't get behind organized religion anymore. Like, I don't feel like I fit in with my religion, I'm searching, I don't. And the thing to me about anthroposophy the spiritual path that I'm part of, is that you, you have to work for it. Like it's not there's nothing handed to you. There's not like, read this, you know, these this excerpt from the Bible, and then come to church every Sunday and do this, you know, whatever thing, this ritual, it's like, there are, you have to do it from inside yourself. And I think that's what you're saying, because I was gonna ask you, what do people do? What do people do that don't feel like they feel connected to religion anymore? It feels like a loss for them. And they feel like, where do they fit in? And how do they have a spiritual practice? If it's not given to them in a church? Or it's not given to them in a temple? Or given to them? They have to create it themselves? 

Yeah, well, I mean, first of all, I would say, when it comes to the religious stuff that you're talking about, it might not be that you look at the sort of rites and rituals as the content
of religion, but rather, you consider the sort of spectrum of Orthodoxy, they're like, how much do you want to adhere to those? How much does the religion demand you adhere to those? And are you attracted to Orthodoxy? With dogma? Are you attracted to a kind of looseness with it? And I think that it's so if we stand back, and we see that, as part of the picture, and part of the gesture of organized religion, and its many forms, we can see actually, not just sort of hone in on the details of each ritual, which also matter. So the reason why I'm saying that is like you can see there, there's like an inner attitude, or an inner move, that's overall towards these sort of rituals, rather than saying, okay, so like, I take communion, or, you know, what I mean, whatever it is.

So, people can look at that, you know, sometimes I think when people are like, say that organized religion didn't work for them, it's because they didn't want to commit to the orthodoxy. Or maybe they were afraid of it, maybe they were afraid of committing.

Or maybe they just didn't like it, or maybe they need something that's looser, or whatever it is. And, you know, they might miss that if they just focus their critique on the religion itself, they might find themselves longing for it, it's why, you know, a lot of people who are Catholic, you know, they will become Wiccan or something, and then essentially just doing the same sort of adherence to different kinds of rituals on a regular basis, but the content is different. Now, I'm not saying that Catholicism and, and Wiccan and Neo pagan stuff are the same, obviously, big differences between them. But yeah, but if the inner gesture and approach is the same, I mean, it's the same thing as people who are religious fundamentalism and become sort of rabid atheists, you know, atheist anti theists, you know, like, they just have the same sort of inner gesture. It's like that. So, I mean, I was first say, just investigate that, you know, see if
you know, how you're believing and things has changed, or how you would engage with what you consider to be spirituality?

And go with that.

That's right.

No, that's great. It's a self knowledge question again. So it's like, oh, yeah. Actually, somebody told me that their daughter just converted to a super Orthodox Judaism. And she, she, like,
learned in herself that that's what she wanted. Oh, and I have another friend whose friend is becoming a nun, a cloistered nun. So like, there's this wish for that inside the person and they know themselves or we hope they know themselves, that that's what they are drawn to. And then other people, like, like, you're talking about Catholicism and Wiccan. It's like they can't stand by I would say maybe one of the things and that could be patriarchy, right. So so there's this thing that's like uncomfortable, but you have to be able to name it and understand it through self knowledge. Like Okay, wait, this isn't working. For me, or Yes, I'm really drawn to the Mary portion of this. Okay, so I'm gonna be more on this like divine feminine camp now, rather than going to the church, but it is it's an understanding of yourself until really look into accept what you see.

So there's an acceptance piece there, too. 

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, sometimes people become cloistered nuns, so they can stop being questioned nuns, you know, I mean, it's not just that they do it, because that's what they, sometimes they have to go through the passage to refuse it. You know. So there's that as well, that it's, you know, the stage of your life that's in front of you may not be where you end up. You know, I mean, maybe it will be. But sometimes that's the case as well.

I had an experience that sort of gave me more information about myself. And I don't know, maybe you can talk about an experience you had, like, with anthroposophy, or some other spiritual stream that you were connected to, we were like, Oh, so I went to Salt Lake City, Utah. I don't know, it was maybe eight years ago. And I remember being there and being so interested in that religion that is so cultivated there, and the Mormon way of life. And I was walking around, and they were just people, like, we went on a tour of one of the houses of one of the founders, or founding people there. And there were women that were from, I don't know all different places in the world. And they were just like, so direct about, like, how much they love their face, they were just like, We're so happy, we have this. And I was like, two times like these people are not afraid to just be like, I love my spiritual path is fantastic. I'm going to talk about it, I'm going to tell you, I don't care if you know about it or not, I don't care if you're if I'm just gonna start telling you like, and, and I know, like a part of it is that you know, you're supposed to share and invite people in, but just the way that they were so plainly, like, into it, and like not an eye because I always felt like underground about my spirituality. And that's why I'm trying to get people to tell their spiritual stories, because I feel like there are other people that are underground about it, too. And we have such a strong force of materialism right now. That I think it's important to counter it with these other experiences of like the dreamy told or these explorations. But anyway, I don't know if you have any stories like that where you were like, huh?

Well, no, I mean, it's funny, because I was immediately just turn that on its head, when you're talking about it, where I was thinking, now, they might be afraid to not say that, I don't mean afraid, because their husbands are gonna be terrible to them, or whatever. But I just mean, like, you know, I remember driving through Louisiana, and hearing every radio station was just like, God, God, God, and people were like, praying on the right, you know, like the DJs were like praying for people. And all the songs were christian songs. And I just felt like I was in the least Christian place I've ever been, because it was as if they had to keep saying that, or it would fall apart. So, I mean, I think there's that question of belief as well. And that's something that I worry about with the telling of spiritual stories, is our people telling them to concretize an experience, which is the opposite of what you might want to do something that's spiritual, if you're trying to get rid of this sort of material realm is like sort of ossified. The stories and, you know, there are, there's there's a book about this, which is particularly bad book actually.
Called a think when God becomes real, I think that's what it's called. And that's sort of her whole thesis is that religion is sort of made up by these ways that people kindle the experience to being, you know, real to themselves. And that is, it's a, it's a shrewd observation, I suppose, on materialistic spirituality. But, you know, it's not applicable to, you know, genuine forms of spirituality. And I think that I worry about that with the story. So you're asking me to tell you a story, but I'm just sort of getting into, like, people love also sometimes to tell their spiritual stories in a way that reduces them into not being spiritual and actually cements them into materialism. So it's something to be careful about not to say don't tell your story.
And not to say don't share your story or don't be open about it or whatever.
But just look at what's happening as you tell it, look at why you're telling it. And, you know, I mean, I, you know, I can tell you all sorts of stories in my life, about spiritual things that have happened, and some of them I feel comfortable talking about. And some of them I don't. And I think that that's because, you know, aside from their intimacy, they're hard to describe. And the certainty or the sort of bafflement or being perplexed by them does not come from me telling someone else, it comes from, you know, the intensity of the experience and the way that I digesting it kind of on my own. And so, you know, it's good for us to tell our stories. Absolutely. And it's definitely good to tell stories against the story of materialism 100%. And
we should be careful, because we know if we're telling stories against materialism, that stories are powerful things and told the wrong way, or for the wrong reasons they can, they can do something that we don't want them to do. And they can take on a life that we can never
read that we have a hard time reclaiming, as, you know, a life that assists our own. So there's you asked me tell your story. And then I'm like, Well, maybe not. 

But and let me ruin the entire premise of your podcast. Laura. Let me just slam that. No, I totally understand what you're saying. Because Okay, first of all, I think it's important to understand your own spiritual biography. And I don't think you have to do that with anyone else. So I think that that can be a very private process, and it doesn't have to be shared. But I also and I get what you say, there's definitely things that I would not share that are mine to hold. Because if I say them in some way, they'll lose their spiritual quality, which is what I hear you saying, Yeah, they'll lose their spiritual nest in my heart or something like they really like they they belong inside me. And they're for me, and they're with maybe another being or something that that this pride, maybe not that they'll lose their spiritual quality, but that you'll lose sight of it. Right, you know, you'll lose sight of a spiritual quality because of what the telling gives. Yeah, and I think there's another story that can be shared, there are other stories that can be shared that then people feel like especially I think, I think they're helpful stories to share. I think the ones that have been shared so far are very helpful. Like they're about a change that happens, or a new way of seeing something or a trust in oneself. And I think that those are stories that make sense to share for other people. So they can, I mean, look, there's there's something that's constantly trying to have us only have a material experience. And so I think anything that can bring that up in a way that is brought in a stream of love and warmth, is a good thing. Yeah, not, like you said, like, what happens when you're sharing it? Like, is it like, this thing where you're like, trying to get somebody else to join it? Or you're like,
I this thing happened to me, you know, there's a very different gesture, I think it's important in the way that is brought, and what is brought through. Yeah, and I mean, and that's the laying the groundwork stuff that we're talking about before. You know, it's some, it's taking these steps so that you can be someone who tells the story and have it be in service in some way. You know, um,

I think that there's a whole  this isn't exactly to your point. But there's a whole culture right now of telling stories about victimization and violence or suffering, or whatever, where people are rewarded by an attention economy for expressing and do I think that people should remain suffering and silence rather than expressing what they've gone through? Of course not. But do we have a culture that's ready for these stories do are we ourselves ready to tell the stories all the time? Why are we telling them what's being given to us by telling them and those are all important questions, you know, and I think it's the same thing for a spiritual story. I mean, those are also the stories of suffering or spiritual stories, but it's the same thing for spiritual stories where it's like, you know, have we made ourselves someone capable of telling the story? You know, just because it happened to us. You know, I mean, you and I walk around with, you know, gallbladders in our bodies, but do I know anything about a gallbladder? I don't know anything about it at all like, so if I'm going to talk about gallbladders, like, it's going to be completely abstract, even though I have it in me, and I'm walking around with it every day or so I'm told, right? So we can have a story that's in us and walk around with it all the time and think it's ours to share and talk about, but we might not know anything about it, even though we can tell it accurately. And so again, it's this conjunction of doing some sort of developmental work. And that developmental work can happen in different ways for everybody, it will happen in different ways for everybody, with being able to express a story that exists in a kind of alignment or transparency with yourself and the spiritual forces that are constituting you and the cosmos. And that's not easy. It's not easy, and it doesn't mean.
So for everybody that's listening to this talk your spiritual stories, because one of the only ways you can learn is by doing it, you know, but you know, pay attention. Right? Pay attention. 

That's it. And I think, I think the people that have shared on this show so far have really processed, the things that they share, like you said, they, they understand it, and yeah, it's interesting, because I've felt this push lately to like, talk about my process, like what I'm going through in certain situations, and I'm like, I can't talk about it, I don't understand it. Like I could be like, it just makes me want to be more silent in a way. Because I am still processing like, I can talk about the price. Man, I remember when Christopher was was in architecture school, and they would talk about, you know, they'd have to like go through all the different iterations of their drawing and talk about like, each step of the way. There's definitely this culture of like breaking things down and like explaining them in every, you know, mood and aspect and what was happening inside when you did this drawing. And, you know, and that I am, that's the caution, I think, is just to  yeah, I don't know, that kind of gets into a head process. And
I'm not I'm not ready to deconstruct, would you say? What do you mean?

You need the head that's needed. That you said, What do you mean? And I was like, Are you asking me to tell you my process right now? Because again?

No, but I mean, you do need it need the head as well as the heart. I mean, I think, you know, the thing that Rudolf Steiner said, which is like, the quickest way to lose power is to speak. So when you say, you know, when you when you talk about silence, I mean, that's a principle. Silence is a principle, as a spiritual principle. You know, silence in bright, just sitting in meditative space, silence and being able to sleep, even if there's noise around silence in your, your emotive, you know, responses to things. silence and speaking. And, of course, speaking is also powerful. Um, but the quickest way to lose power is to speak, you know, you can sort of think of it as like, we all have these.
Yeah, we all have these like spells that we can announce, but once we announce them, they're gone. They're like be stingers or something like that, like you can lodge it into something, but then you really suffer a loss.
And we don't want really to have power. Like, I mean, I think that that's the sort of unspoken or silent thing in that Rudolf Steiner quote, like, actually, we'd want to dismiss power.
But people think that by speaking, there's empowerment, well, maybe there is some times but most of the time there isn't. And if you think that there is, but there isn't, and you're seeking power by speaking, then there's a real not, you know, real tangle and, and really, what we want to do is dissolve the realm of power over other people.
And, and we want to do that by holding it until it transmutes. And then when we speak, we say something true, and that, you know, there's the other thing, Meister Eckhart, you know, said like, only the hand that a racist can write the truth thing.
And I think that there's that as well. It's this constant tending to the nothingness. And the silence around our stories. Every letter in a word has a space between itself and the letter next to it, and every word has space between itself and the word next to it. And, you know, I think that those form the story as well. And it's important to live in that aspect, too.

I think that's a really beautiful way of explaining the power of silence and that inner quiet, and just allowing something to unfurl in a natural way, rather than feeling like you have to force it out of yourself and say, sometimes that's important, but yeah. Space. Silence for the next great podcasts, everyone podcast brought to you by john cage.

I don't know who that is. Sorry.

The composer who had famously had a had a piece that was like, just the sounds of people before the music started. So people shuffling around in their seats, cough, you know, just sitting there. 

Yeah, perfect. Yes, that that could be this podcast. Let's just sit quietly now. Okay, so like, Can we talk about your novel for a second, like, totally scares? You made me think about it with this whole, like, the space between the words and and also that you gave a talk on Ulysses, which is a very interesting place to talk about the spaces between words and sentences. But anyway, so can you just talk about a little bit?

Yeah, um, was a spiritual practice for you to write it. Sorry. Go ahead. 

So I mean, I know I love writing. I don't really understand writers who say that they dislike writing. And fact I find myself a little frustrated by them sometimes. Because I just think, well, what just you don't have to tell us that. And also, I think you do like it, you know, and maybe you're you identify with not liking it as your way of liking it, but I love writing. It's a mood that, you know, I create out of myself when I write so it's sort of, um, it's, it's my own thing. And so I have novel coming out next year. It's called Hawk mountain. And it's a very, very dark novel, about a guy sort of running into his high school bullies 15 years later, and the guy who bullied him ass. Can I stay with you for a little bit? for various complicated reasons. And the guy who's bullied says yes. And gradually, the sort of the tormentor starts forming a really close relationship with the other guy's six year old son. And these become more and more tense.
And then something crazy happens. And that's the first third of the book and it spirals out from there.

Darker and darker--shiver.

I mean, we'll probably do another episode before that comes out. Because I don't think that comes out till June or something, but, but I'm very excited. I mean, it's all ready to go from Norton in the US and double day, which is part of penguin here in Ireland and the UK. So yeah. 

Oh, man, I can't wait to read it. Even though I know you were like, are you sure you're gonna be able to read this because you. You're always telling me to watch like horror movies. And I'm like, I can't do that. But I've made a commitment to you Connor to read your book.Maybe I can get a signed copy. Okay, well, I think um, is there anything else you want to share?

I mean, I think you know, I've just been up against this wall lately. You know, you asked me to do this podcast a little while ago and I couldn't do it because of where my mind was at and what's going on in my life and you know, without talking about that too much and if people want to hear about that they can listen to Episode 159 of my show with with Duncan Trussell which just came out recently where I just talked about love and loss and heartache and all that like it's not lost but heartache and and it's interesting how, you know, having love on my mind so much and heartache on my mind so much and, and in my heart--a lot of the sort of spiritual abstraction has kind of fallen away. And yet also, I recognize, really, really profoundly that, you know, the spiritual practice is sorting through this relationship intensity, and this love intensity and heartache. And I think we tend to think that our spiritual development
will come as you know, meditation, or religion, or whatever it is, but it's wherever you find the challenge, the thing that really, really you don't want to be or do, and really the reversal of your being in some way.
And, and so, you know, it's interesting to be on a show like this, right now, where
I am doing all sorts of spiritual work, but I, you know, if you told me it was, or if I tried to sort of describe it to audiences, or whatever, it would not sound that way. You know, I'm not chanting or Jain mantras or whatever, I am praying a lot. But just the gesture of it, the whole picture of is completely different. And so I think that people should hear that too. You know, when when someone says, share your spiritual story, you may not know that that's what it is. And it's good to remember that all stories are spiritual stories, all of them. As soon as you realize that, then you can tell any story.
Um, and materialism is a spiritual story of a certain sort. And so I think,

I'm sorry, I think he just did like the bear eating the wolf eating the fox eating.
Right there.

What do you mean/ 

You were like, spiritual stories....every story is a spiritual story....materialism is a spiritual story. 

Yeah, yeah.

Sorry, and then a bear eats you?
Well, I think so many people are in this intensity right now where and I think it's great to look at it as we're the spiritual work is happening. So whether is like a fire coming, and taking a house or a storm in a relationship or whatever, whatever is happening? It is, that's a great way to look at it like that is the spiritual work of those really poignant, thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, I bet no problem. 
I mean, it is just what I was saying before, you don't have to make signs like, your life will give you the spiritual task, and it won't give you the signs. What you have to do maybe is make yourself you know, ready, have it ready for it or, you know, as Brave Buffalo says, you know, if we make ourselves worthy of that, towards which we are attracted, we have we would have dreams would purify our lives. So make yourself worthy of the things that are going to approach you and everybody has a different way of doing that, that, you know, you know what it is like, when you look at your life and you just know those little snags in your personality or you're being an asshole to somebody or you're just you're trying to coerce someone or you're trying to always get a deal or you're, you're afraid to open the bill, you know, the electric bill or whatever, so you don't open in your mail or whatever it is, you know, in your heart, all these things that don't feel right. And those are the things that you start untying and undoing and healing those holes in your, in your whole being in the entirety of your being and then slowly the signs that are given rather than forced and coaxed and coerced start to appear.
And so that's why everything becomes a spiritual story and a spiritual task. 

Thank you so much, Connor. It's been great talking with you, and you're still too far away, but that's okay. Because um see you.  I love you so much.

Bye. Bye, everybody.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai