Chris Burke, Ph.D shares the story of a spiritual voice that once saved his life. Together we explore the power of creating a "community of listening and sharing" and why now more than ever everyday people, not just experts, are truly healers. Find out more about Chris and biography work at
www.riverbendbiographical.com
www.thehummingbirdprinciple.com
biographysocialart.org
Chris Burke, Ph.D shares the story of a spiritual voice that once saved his life. Together we explore the power of creating a "community of listening and sharing" and why now more than ever everyday people, not just experts, are truly healers. Find out more about Chris and biography work at
www.riverbendbiographical.com
www.thehummingbirdprinciple.com
biographysocialart.org
Hi, I'm Laura Scappaticci, the host of that good may become a new bi weekly podcast that explores and reveal spiritual experiences in our everyday lives. Thank you so much for being here for episode number four with CRISPR. Chris is an associate professor of psychology at Lehigh University, where he's explored the themes of stress, grief and close relationships. And we definitely talk about some of his super cool classes in this episode. He's a certified biography and social art facilitator, find out more about that in the show notes. And he's also led workshops online and around the world bringing people together to understand their stories. At the beginning of this episode, Chris shares a great story of a voice that once saved his life. Plus, if you stay tuned until the end, he offers a very cool reflection exercise that will help you contemplate three particular moments in your life. If you are enjoying the podcast, please subscribe so more people can find out about it. And together we can That's right. counteract the forces of materialism. I really mean that I really do. On my website, Laura Scappaticci.com, I'll soon be posting a platform for you to share your spiritual biography stories with me. So stay tuned for that and sign up for my newsletter. Enjoy the episode. Welcome to that good may become with me, Laura Scappaticci , where we learn to illuminate the esoteric in our everyday lives. Chris, it's so nice to have you here today on that good may become. And we were just together actually in Pennsylvania, which is where you live and where you teach at Lehigh University. So thanks for agreeing to be on the show.
Dr. Chris Burke:Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Laura.
Laura Scappaticci:Yeah, great. Well, we are going to talk about a lot of different things today as related to self knowledge. Part of that picture will be, you know, your experience in higher education and mine as well. I think we've seen the extent of struggle that people have, that students are going through right now young people and people of all ages. And they come into our offices with these, these deep life questions. And as a psychology professor, I think you're especially suited to meet your students in that way. So we are going to talk about that in a little bit. But I always like to ask this question, if you could please share a spiritual experience from your own biography, then we'll talk about that word biography a little bit more later. But let's, let's just open up with that.
Dr. Chris Burke:Sure, yeah. And I, you know, one of the things I think is important about working with biography in general is this, this this realization that some moments kind of reveal themselves in the moment and, and others don't reveal themselves until maybe years and years later. And so I can actually remember one time as a child, I had some some cousins who were visiting from, from out of state, and we're, we were visiting my grandmother's house, and we were exploring, it's like one of these towns where you could just kind of run all over town, everybody knew everybody. And there were some railroad tracks that move through the bottom of that town. And we were all just playing on the railroad tracks, because that's what kids do. They play in railroad tracks, and bottles, and we were like, throwing rocks at bottles and breaking them. And it was like having fun. And all of a sudden, I just something said look up. And, and I looked up and there was there was a train that was coming toward us. And I was like, you know, I in my, in my memory, it was kind of like, out of an action movie or something. And reality was probably much different from that. But, you know, this, like, just shouting jump, and everybody jumped off the tracks down onto the street, and then the train went by. And, you know, that moment stuck with me just thinking like, what was it that said, Look up, Tina, what was it that said something, there's something needs your attention right now, you know, and, yeah, and so I, you know, years later, I've been working with my biography and, and I was I was reading something that said, you know, for people who are called to an anthroposophical, you know, spiritual science kind of path in this, like, you'll find an experience in your life where a voice says to you, tells you to do something and you realize after the fact this like safety from some perilous danger, like you were just about to step off a cliff or something and, and it's like, oh, there it is, you know, that's, that's what it was, you know, something just, you know, needed to call me to say, look up and, you know, so I can find little moments like that in my life. That are just like, you know, every moment has every moment is a spiritual experience. You know, it's a question of how do we how do we find ourselves? And how do we find the spirit in the moment?
Laura Scappaticci:That is an incredible story. You know, I have to tell you, I was at this little gathering two days ago, and it was with people, I didn't know any of the people there. And I told the one woman, she was like, What do you do? And I mentioned this podcast. And then she told me this, like, incredible spiritual story. And she was like, Well, I don't really I don't really tell people this, but like, there's How do I even talk about her? Who do I talk about it with? Like, what's the reason to even talk about it? And so then she started asking, so then it like, sort of moved over to the other people in the group. And they were like, you know, she was like, well, are there common experiences that people have, like, spiritual experiences? And I think like this thing that you just said, about, like, a voice coming in and intervening in some way is one of those common ones. And I also think, so that I, I'm really glad that the voice came in, y'all jumped? Are we talking right now. And then I think also with the dead, that was like another one. And then people connecting with like, spiritual beings. So this, none of these people were connected to anthroposophy, which is what I'm connected to, and you're connected to you. But I know there are people listening here from every different background. So I, I just, yeah, that happened in that little gathering I was in where I didn't even know anybody people really want to talk about and share their stories, and they don't know quite where to go with it. So that's why we're doing this podcast together.
Dr. Chris Burke:Yeah, I think that's so great. You know, because there's this, I don't know, I think there can be this sense that, oh, you know, people are superficial, or Oh, people just want to have these kind of, you know, small talking kind of conversations. But in my experience working with groups and working with with different types of people, it's people are really just waiting to feel like they have permission to talk about these things, because they're hard to talk about. And people are concerned about how they're going to be received. And and, you know, they're going to lose friends, or you know, people are going to think about them differently. And so, you know, for me, there's there's so much about just creating a space where we can invite those kinds of stories into the space. And once you do you start to see Oh, yeah, you know, here's another here's my story. And here's my story. And, and he realized that you're not alone, right, that everybody has their own story, their own experience, and yet, somehow collectively, we're going through something together.
Laura Scappaticci:Yeah, we totally are going through something together. And I think like, the stories are all different. And when you start to hear them, then you can trust your own story. So then you you your level of trust in yourself and what you've experienced increases to and then you can receive other stories, too. I yeah, it's, it's, it's a time where I feel like these stories are more important than ever. And also more suppressed, I think, than ever. Right? So, yeah, so what are you? So talk about these spaces that kind of give permission? What are what are they like?
Dr. Chris Burke:Yeah, you know, I think in a way there are, we there are a lot of people right now who are working to create spaces where we're hard or raw conversations can happen. And I try to join in as many of those as I can, because I'm kind of a researcher in that way I'm kind of interested in, in how people work to create these spaces, you know, in my experience, creating these kinds of spaces for biography work, or for the classes that I teach. There's something about some structure that's provided, you know, there's this this idea of freedom within forum, where, you know, when we can create some, some shared understanding of how we're going to be together, often that involves working out some specific agreements for how we're going to share with each other, how we're going to protect the confidentiality, how we're going to listen to one another, and so on. That allows everyone to feel like we're all kind of on the same page about how we're going to be together and that allows people to, to step in, in a different way. I also find that my own capacity to to be to practice humility to be you know, a student alongside the group of everybody is a student, everybody's a teacher in these spaces, you know, everyone has something that they're bringing in everyone has something that they can learn. And I in my classes in particular, I find that that's so important to just be able to, you know, allow myself to be not the authority I don't have I don't have the answers you Only you have the answer. To your, to your questions to your stories, but I can I can work to create a space where where those answers can speak to you. Because I think there's, you know, there's a, there's a social layer of defenses that we have, where, you know, we, we want to make sure that we come across the right way, we don't want to reveal too much to people that we don't know very well. But there's also we have that inside of ourselves as well, you know, there are parts of ourselves that we don't really like to think about, that we don't really like to look at. And yet, they're really important. They're there, they're sometimes the most important component components of the stories that we're trying to work out in ourselves. And so we need the invitation to go there in a safe way where we're going to be held, we're going to be supported in going to those difficult places.
Laura Scappaticci:I love what you just said about, okay, I wish I could be in one of your classes, because you just said as a, you know, a professor at a really well esteemed University, that you don't need to be the authority. And I think that's just incredible. So you're able to receive the stories of those students in your classes and be together with them and the exploration rather than, you know, seated kind of above them. And that also happened in this little gathering I was in I was just watching, you know, to, I feel like the authority comes from within the group, right? So it doesn't come from one person it can emerge. So this woman asked me a very direct question, because I guess she thought I was some kind of authority because of this podcast, which is really funny to me. And I just listened to it. And then someone else answered her question with like, a way better answer with a Buddhist practice that I didn't even know about feeding your demons. And so that was really beautiful. So I never really actually answered her question. Someone else in the in the group answered her question. And I was totally grateful for that. Because I was like, wow, this is a really deep question, how do I, how do I go there?
Dr. Chris Burke:And as I mean, whether you're the actual authority in that space, or you're just kind of the, you've kind of the presumed authority in that space, there's something about wanting to have the answer, there's something there's a there's a weight of wanting to have the answer. And if you can get past that, and let's say, I don't mean to have the answer, the answer is in here, but it doesn't have to come from me, then that's, that really frees you to to just experience the situation. And, and learn something for yourself. Right. I have to say that that a lot of what I've learned about teaching, especially teaching in this way, I learned from the work of Parker Palmer, who one of his first books was was called to know as we are known. And the the idea of this, this to know, as we are known, he said, you know, if you really want to know something, whether it's another person, or whether it's some some topic that you're studying, you have to allow yourself to be known by it, because it's only in that sort of opening yourself to the thing that you're studying that the thing will reveal itself to you. And that's just always been such this beautiful image for me of, I have to, I have to bring my whole self and set aside my defenses, if I really want to learn something, if I really want to understand something about myself better if I want to understand someone, someone else better, or some topic that I'm studying. And I can invite my students to do something similar.
Laura Scappaticci:That's incredible. I'm just thinking about the vulnerability that requires to just be in a space and let yourself be known by something I can get this in my relationship. So we've been married. Let's see. Um, I think I was 18 years. Right. And then together, like, more that 21. Right. So and then, you know, a reinvention is needed in marriage all the time. Like, you're always getting remarried, I think in a way and then those kinds of commitments. And so now, you know, we've had this like life where we've been very busy, and we've been raising children, and we've both been working. And now I'm like, okay, we're both sort of trying to get to know each other again. And it's, it's, there's a lot of vulnerability required in that but I am able to see and understand my husband more because he's a, he's allowing himself to be seen. And so then I have to allow myself to be seen to which is kind of hard. Can you talk about that in terms of releases? But also in terms of like a spiritual path, like, because he said it could be it could be in terms of anything.
Dr. Chris Burke:Yeah, I think that, you know, in terms of relationships, as you said, relationships, relationships are always being renewed and refreshed. And actually, one of one of my big inspirations for relationships is reka, who, you know, have this, these very kind of radical ideas for his time about what what relationship looks like, but this very strong conviction that you have two solitudes, who are kind of holding space for one another. And, you know, I, and we, as individuals are always growing and changing and evolving, and we often don't feel like we have a very good handle on ourselves. And so this idea of, of allowing this unfinished product to be to be really seen by another is Yeah, as you said, requires a huge amount of vulnerability. And yet, you know, there's also this, this, you know, we can have the experience that we have kind of certain kinds of blinders on, or certain kinds of, you know, tinted glasses that we wear in our relationships that have to do that, that, you know, are maybe self protective, you know, we need to see someone in a particular light, because we need to see ourselves in a particular light, or we need to, you know, make particular judgment, because that protects ourselves from a negative self judgment, you know, they're, they're all of these subtle little things that, that we can see in our relationships, if we do the work, right. So that's, again, where kind of the work of biography comes in, it's, it's, you know, I find there's often this kind of self work that has to happen in order to, to do the interpersonal work, I think there's often kind of an impulse to just go straight to the social. And actually, we need to understand ourselves, before we can step into understanding others, you know, I teach a course in personality, and students take a course in personality often because they want to understand other people. And, and they're often surprised when I say, No, actually, we're going to spend this semester with you learning about yourself, you know, because you need to understand yourself in order to, to relate to others. And they're taken aback by that at first, because they're used to studying things that are out there, not things that are inside. And, you know, when I invite them to bring their stories actually require them to bring their stories into the work that they're doing. They can experience it in a whole new way. So that's why I would say about the relational part. And with respect to a spiritual path, I think, Well, I think that the relational part is, though, is part of a spiritual path, of course. But I think you can, you can see it in these everyday moments, you know, there's a lecture where Rudolf Steiner says, that we can train ourselves to to be keen observers of the world around ourselves. And if we do that we can find we will find that not a day goes by that a miracle doesn't occur in each of our lives. It's just a question of whether we can recognize it. Right? And so, yeah, so you can develop a practice, like, at the end of the day, like, I wonder where my miracle was today, as you as you review your day, like, But where was the miracle today? Where was the, you know, the entire universe aligning to allow something to happen? is miraculous, right? And, and so our ability to recognize those experiences, I think, has a lot to do with our openness to receiving those experiences.
Laura Scappaticci:Oh, so good. It's, it's, yeah, because it is about receiving and perceiving at the same time. Yeah, we've been doing this little practice at night where we name our saints and they're like living people in our lives, or their people have crossed over. And so we're just trying to notice the people that have influenced us maybe that day or maybe we just thought about them. So I was thinking about my you know, I said oh, last night St. st and gal so it girl, if you're listening, you are saying last night, you know and and what she did, she used to take me to get strawberry pie and we saw her when we were in Pennsylvania recently and you know, just an incredible person. But that's it. It's it's miraculous to have people in our lives that direct us towards something new or back towards ourselves or and I think, Okay, so let's talk about biography and social art. I think a lot of people don't know what that is. I think they can get a sense of biography. What that means because we've been talking about spiritual biographies, but biography you know, has so much more about to it and can relate to the planets and concrete and relate to seven year cycles of people's lives. And that perspective, I don't want to get too far into details. But can you talk about the social art part of it a little bit more? I think that's what you are what you're doing in your classes, actually. Some of that social art. Yeah,
Dr. Chris Burke:yeah, I can definitely, maybe I'll say just a little bit more about biography work, and then then tie in the social art piece. So you know, the biography. And I know you've been talking about this on the podcast, it's, it's the story of your life. And that can seem kind of superficial at first, because there's this sense of, Oh, I know the story of my life, I lived it, I know the story. You know, we can distinguish between this the story that we tell ourselves and, and the kind of deeper story which are kind of the deeper spiritual threads that are running through our life that connect to meaning and purpose in our lives. And what becomes interesting when we start looking at the biography at that deeper level, is that it's, it's all part of the story. It's all that the story kind of gains coherence as we start to look at it at this deeper level. And we start to see, we start to remember things that we hadn't thought about in years and years and years. And now all of a sudden, we can see their connection to other experiences, we start to see certain experiences in a different light, where, you know, we're talking a few minutes ago about those, we can have these certain lenses that we like to see experiences through, but maybe we can actually work to see them at a deeper level. And biography work as it as it emerged as a practice out of anthroposophy. You know, I, in a way, the work of biography doesn't require anthroposophy. But anthroposophy provides kind of this, this structure and framework of human development that that really complements the work of, of biography, because biography work is all about constantly weaving back and forth between the individual and the archetypal human being. And it's, there's this going back and forth, because I can work with this archetype of human being and the what is the development than sort of normal development of a human being look like, as it moves through phases, different phases of life, and what are the qualities of those different phases, and so on. And we can talk about temperament. And we can talk about lots of different archetypal qualities that helped me to understand who I am, and help me to make sense of my experiences. And at the same time, the individual is feeding back to kind of inform the archetype. And I have this kind of imagination, that biography work, can can evolve into a new psychology. You know, I'm a psychology professor, I have this feeling that that biography work can can develop into sort of a democratized psychology, where, right now we have a psychology where experts are telling people who they are and how they work and that sort of thing. In in the future, maybe we have this biography based psychology, where people work with their own experiences, share their stories with one another. And through that sharing, they build up this picture of what does it mean to be a human being, because I'm a human being, and you're a human being. And there are certain common threads between our stories, and there are certain things that make us individuals. And as we do more of this sharing with more and more people, we build up this picture of, what does it mean to be human? And I think that's part of the social artistry, right? The social artistry is in the encounter between individuals, where we have, you know, one person sharing the story as hearing a personal experience, maybe something they've never told anyone else before. And the gesture of receiving that story that someone offers can transform the experience and and it can actually also trigger new insights in the person who's listening because it's even though it's not their story, it is their story. And so to me, this this part of the social artistry is how do we come together and work together in a way that humanizes one another and allows us all to to grow in our humanity. And that I think is something that we all need that right now. Oh,
Laura Scappaticci:my goodness. Okay. Can you please write a book called democratised psychology. And just Seriously though, because this is exactly what we need. And that's what happened in that little gathering, like when we're just all hearing each other's things and experiences and it's super healing. It is what I feel like, you know, we can go to therapists and we can go to psychologists, we can go to experts. And that's helpful and there's a lot that happens in there with objectivity, but the the the listening, the objective listening from another person that maybe is in a room with you or at a party with you or in a class with you that you're going to just, it's just a human that you're not paying is really it's really heartening and just so poignant to have those experiences and that is where the healing occurs like I can, okay, so you know, if we go back and we look at our saints every night, there are going to be people, they're going to be saints that just were maybe I remember one time. This is super personal. We were living in Vancouver, and I just had a miscarriage. It was my The first time I was pregnant, I was so sad. And we were in a grocery store. And this man walked up to me. And he gave me this little piece of paper that had a little message typed on it. And it was like, do not despair. Like he didn't know me and never talked to me. So this this little the saint just walked in, he gave me this thing, and I carried it around in my wallet for so long. And it was so moving. And it was just another human that took a minute to to maybe perceive that I was sad, and just sort of sense in some way, and come up and do that. So democratize psychology. Yeah, we could all be doing this. No, seriously, I'm gonna be looking for the book. And I'm gonna pester you. I'm gonna it's gonna be my mission. That's true. Yes. Okay, good. Um, okay, so what happens? Well, maybe you want to say some more there. So sorry. Yeah, I think?
Dr. Chris Burke:Well, first of all, thank you for sharing that beautiful little story. And I think that there is something in that. Yeah, that I wonder if there was something in you that was that was willing to be seen in that moment, right. Because I think one of the things that, that people are really good at, is hiding their struggles, right? It's people are really good at concealing the fact that life is hard. You know, and I think one of the really serious consequences of that is that we look around, and it looks like everyone else is doing just fine. And we know our own struggles, and that is terribly isolating, right? We feel so alone in our struggles, because it looks like everybody else is doing fine, when actually everybody just like us are really good at hiding the fact that we're struggling. And so what can happen, what can transform in our communities, when people take down those facades and actually start talking about the fact that they're struggling, that life is hard, that they're dealing with unemployment, or they're dealing with addiction in their household, or they're dealing with, you know, juggling work and raising children, whatever it might be, then suddenly, we can start to see each other in a more human way. And we can start to, yeah, have these conversations and, and, you know, one of, I'm really interested in the idea of community and what is what does a healthy community look like? And how do we create healthy communities and, and there's work on that coming out of sociology, and, you know, urban planning, and all different kinds of areas. But I read a few books a book a few years ago about how, you know, so much of social life has been has been stuck in systems, you know, we've got the educational system, and we've got the medical system, and we've got all of these different systems, doing the things that communities used to do for one another, and that there's some kind of modern efficiency associated with these systems, but but it also really sucks the life out of our neighborhoods out of our communities and, and it can rob people have the opportunity to, to bring the gifts that they have, right? Because maybe you have a particular talent and people you know, people often struggle to find what is your, what's your particular gift. And I mean, this is this is like one of my guiding principles of doing biography work is that every single person, through their, through what they've been born with, through the experiences they've had in their life has the potential to do something that nobody else can do, right. That's their, that's their path. That's their mission to uncover that and to realize that and how much we take away people's opportunities to, to live those gifts and talents in their daily lives because everything has been tucked away into systems. And I think, you know, psychology is is one of those systems where there's absolutely a role for Professional Psychology. And so many people just need someone to talk to someone, someone needs someone to listen to their story and to just sit with them and not give them advice and not try to fix their problems, but just sort of allow them To share their story. And so that's one of the things that we can start to do for one another again,
Laura Scappaticci:I had never thought about the systems and that way I know what it feels like to be in those systems and how it can feel kind of like the sterilized or to, I don't know, but it is the people that give it life. So when you're in a hospital or something, it's like the kindness of someone that's there. But I love this idea of like a listening, sharing culture community that has that as at its essence, that hour kind of changed. The world has certainly changed this country, if we really work to listen, and worked to be able to share, like you're saying, people are just holding so much in all the time. And I think I think, you know, back to my story about you know, relationships, I think it gets to the point where you've held it for so long, you don't know how to say it anymore. You don't know. It's it's like a muscle that's atrophied. The sharing muscle. And that's probably true about the listening muscle as well. Yeah,
Dr. Chris Burke:I yeah, in biography works, so much of what we do is learning how to listen in different ways to each other, you're practicing different ways of listening. And, you know, can can we find a sort of whole body listening, where we just completely all of we're giving all that we have over to the person who has something to share. And what I find is that those two things that that you just mentioned, those two muscles are closely connected to each other, that when someone offers you the gift of listening, then the story finds a way to come through, you know, you you could not have articulated that story five minutes ago, but now that you have this, this gesture of listening, suddenly the story just comes out and and things come out that you wouldn't, you know, insights come out that you hadn't ever made before. And somehow it's just, it can happen in this stream of consciousness way when you're being listened to.
Laura Scappaticci:That is so great. Yeah, it's like, it's, it gives it a place to happen. I remember, like, I think one of the first times I was in a group that was doing like, biography work, I was at a conference. And again, I was in a group of strangers, which I strangely enjoy. And we were supposed to share, you know, certain things that happened at points in our life. And I ended up sharing and this woman shared with me to like, really, like Parag kind of things. And it was incredible to me and I, you know, how you people talk about like, the vulnerability hangover, or where whatever, like after you share something, maybe because that muscles attribute it just gets really tired and concerned about itself. But it was, it was because that space was created. And that's back to the original agreements. I wanted to just bring a little picture that Davina muse, she works with simplicity parenting, or she, she did that before, she has her own consulting visits now. And so I was doing this training on simplicity, parenting, and because I wanted my kids to really have the experience of imaginative play as much as possible and not clutter their space or have them, you know, that fill up their minds with images that were created for them rather than their own. So anyway, she, she said, Just imagine your heart has little ears on it. And I was like, oh, a heart with little ears on it. That's just so amazing and sweet. And so I try to remember that because I haven't always been a good listener. And I think actually, I started to learn to listen more. When we were together. We were in like a study group, we were reading a book called How to Know higher worlds, which is about developing spiritual capacities. And there was something in there about, like listening and judgment and open mindedness. And that, that taught me more about how to listen. Yeah, so important. Yeah. Hmm.
Dr. Chris Burke:so important. Yeah. And, you know, maybe we can, I can just transition that into talking a little bit more about working with with students in higher education right now. Because, you know, the, you know, I work at a pretty good university, you know, top students from their high school classes and up at my university. And part of part of what that means is that, yes, they are quite intelligent. But also it means that they've learned how to navigate this educational system which says, learn it, you know, put it on the put the answers on the test, and then forget it and make space for something else. And so, it In my classes, when I invite them to bring themselves to work with their own stories to integrate what they're learning with their lives and integrate their lives with what they're learning, it can be a little bit, you know, it takes a little while for them to get used to that, and then they totally appreciate the opportunity. And, you know, what I, what I found is that, just by creating a space where people are invited to bring themselves, they, I have developed so much gratitude and appreciation for these young adults who, you know, I mean, I think the broader cultural, broader culture really doesn't have a lot of really positive things to say for, you know, Millennials or whatever that whatever the new name is, for this young generation. But they they are carrying so much they are, they are carrying so much and they hold it together really well, because that's what they've been taught to do hold it together. But when we create this space where they can share their experiences, I mean, there's just so much that they're carrying. And so last semester, I actually decided, you know, knowing that we were working through the pandemic, and just, I knew how much I was caring, I knew much other adults were caring, but what about these young people? So I created a course that I called grief, anxiety and resilience. And I invited them to bring their experiences of of loss and grief, and what are they concerned about? What are they worried about? And, yeah, there was just really so much from from losing loved ones to, you know, things that they felt like, Oh, I can't, I shouldn't, I shouldn't feel bad about this. But, you know, my, my spring, my summer, or my, my study abroad trip was cut short, because the pandemic and, and I just, I'm grieving that, like, that's, that's perfectly valid, it's a loss, you know, and, and just creating opportunity to say, yes, we've all lost, and we've all, we all have concerns, and yeah, we can make space for all of those, we don't have to classify them as valid losses, and, you know, good enough losses or not good enough losses, now, it's all loss. And it's all part of our, our journey together. And what can happen when when we learn to see our, our losses, our grief, our fears and anxieties, as kind of companions on this journey of life, as opposed to these things that we have to get rid of, or fix or solve or brushed aside and said, what maybe they're just our partners, maybe they're just there are walking companions, and we just need to learn how to get in step with them. And so I think that everyone can benefit from this kind of practice, everyone can benefit from having the opportunity to share their stories. And that's for me, I think that's been one of my takeaways with higher education so far, is invite them in because that's, that's where the real magic happens. You know, the magic is not in the textbook, you know, it's I, I, well, we, you and I both know, because we're connected to Waldorf education that they, they make their own textbooks, these main lesson books, which are beautiful, and you know, they create this out of themselves. You know, I think in terms of biography work about, you know, how do we learn to, to read from the textbooks of our lives, you know, like our life has, has all of the details, we just have to kind of sort them out and, and connect them together.
Laura Scappaticci:Wow, I'm just sort of picturing what the textbook of my life would look like. And that's, that seems like a cool workshop. And what a nice way to put it, I also really appreciate that you said that grief or anxiety as companions that we walk with. That that's a new perspective, I think on the last podcast episode with Claire sacrament, she was talking about that, how, you know, just having her the loss of her ancestors, I got all that grief with her and the anxiety that came from it. Be with her, but instead of trying to eradicate it, or suppress it, it's like, it's gonna it's going to walk with you. And, you know, you talked about some of the early loss experiences you had in your life and being 15 and losing people in a conversation that we had. And I think that's right. It's an acceptance thing. And I do think, as I was saying, before, that connecting with those we've lost or going through grief is where one of one of the most powerful spiritual experiences we can have in our life exists. Yeah, so those can those are good companions,
Unknown:actually. Yeah.
Dr. Chris Burke:I like to play with words sometimes and I was I was put together a biography workshop about about grief and transforming grief. And so I was like, Oh, this word grief, like, What? Where does that come from? You know, and tracing, tracing back, you know, and it comes from, you know, the root word basically means heavy, you know, so it has this connection to our word gravity, right? gravity and grief, or have the same root, but also words like engrave, or groove, like those have the same root to you know, so you have this, this feeling of heaviness, but also this feeling of like, there's a permanent mark there, right? You can't, you can't erase it's there. It's, it's part of you, you know, it's like, it's a, it's a, it's a part of the record of your life, you know, the, the LP of your life. And, you know, and then I was like, okay, so grief is kind of this burden. It's something we bear, and, you know, so so it's something we bear is something that is born, you know, and what is what is it that we're giving birth to, right? There's the sense that, that our grief is an opportunity to give birth to a new part of ourselves, but we have to be willing to go there. And to me, that's just a really powerful image of, okay, there's something new that can come out of this experience, if I can, if I can go through this dark space, and allow myself you're going back to what we said earlier, allowing myself to, to be seen in this space and, and then the social art part of it is having the people around me who can hold the space for that to happen, right? grief is a solitary journey, but it's something that, that that we really require other people to hold the space so that we can go through that process.
Laura Scappaticci:Since this is about self knowledge, I feel like we've covered so much about why biography is a huge, a huge component of self knowledge and like looking at these different things in your life and listening and sharing and allowing yourself to be seen and heard. And I guess I wonder if you have a practical tip or a practice you would like to send people off with understanding the benefits of, of doing this biographical work?
Dr. Chris Burke:Sure, I'd love to offer a biography exercise. And just to say that biography exercises are things that you can do on your own, but it's really great if you can do it with another person, because then you have the opportunity to, to share with with one another, what kinds of stories are coming out of your, your process. So and often in biography exercises, we work artistically, we take experiences, and we we work with them artistically in some way. So I, if I were going to offer a practice, I would say, take a piece of paper, and fold it into thirds, like you were going to fold up an envelope to put it in or fold up a letter to put it in an envelope. And so you have three panels, then and each of these three panels. So there's a left panel, a right panel and a center panel. And you can take some color pencils, and you can find three different experiences from your life. And then after you find those three experiences, I'll ask you to step back and just see what is the story here. And the first experience would be a moment where you fell asleep to yourself, you know, like there's, you can I think we can all find times in your life or in our lives where we say, Why did I do that? I can't believe I would say that, I can't believe I would do that, or I can't believe I would forget that. You know, so there there are these moments in our lives where we fall asleep to ourselves or are we think of as our higher calling our higher direction, find a moment like that and just make a little sketch of it on the left hand side of that paper. Then maybe on the right hand side of the paper, take a few minutes and find a moment where someone else kind of acted out of character. You know, some someone else did something that surprised you that didn't seem like them at all. They were mean when they're normally nice, or they were nice when they were normally mean something like that, you know, there's there's these moments we can find where somebody did something surprising. Find a moment like that and make a little sketch. And then in the center panel, I would say, look for an experience of what you might call an unanswered prayer that turned out to be a blessing in disguise. You know, there's a Garth Brooks song says some of God's greatest gifts are unanswered prayers. You know, we have these moments where we feel like we really dodged a bullet, you know, like, we really wanted something and we were so disappointed when it didn't happen. And then later, we were like, Oh, I'm so glad that didn't happen the way that I expected to, to or wanted it to. And when we look at experiences like this, you know, so again, take a few minutes and sketch that in the center panel and then kind of look at this as a whole, because what we can hopefully find is that there is this There's this higher higher thread that can run through our experiences like this, that, again, it's it's not necessarily recognizing the significance in the moment, but it's about taking the time to look at our experiences in a new way. And see, is there something that wants to reveal itself? You know, an instruction we often give with an exercise like this is just trust the memories that come up when you think about these because, you know, there's there's a higher intelligence at work sometimes, you know, we might think, oh, that's not a very good one good one to work with, oh, that's not good enough. But actually, whatever comes up is usually just the right thing. And, and they might seem surprising, like, why that one, but then just just trust in the process and see what wants to come. And then share that with somebody else, and practice listening to the other person's story as well. And I think through work like this, we can find that there is there's so much depth to our lives, there's so much more than what meets our eye on the surface. And, for me, at least, that that always wants, that makes me want to do more and more. It's just keep going. You know, that was, I got hooked on biography work when I did it the first time and I haven't been able to stop and, and that's okay. I'm okay with that.
Laura Scappaticci:That's amazing. This is super interesting exercise. And I have it written here on my little post it divided into three. And I can't wait to try it out. I guess I'm wondering, Chris, if people want to work with you, how do they reach you? And I'll make sure I put this in the show notes too. But could you just say how they contact you?
Dr. Chris Burke:Sure. So So I work at Lehigh University as a psychology professor. I have a couple of different biography related ventures one of my personal consulting practice is called river bend biographical consulting, at river, river, bend, biographical, calm, and I also have a collaboration with my friend on a devilled. That's called the hummingbird principle. So you can find us at the hummingbird principle.com. And I'm also the board chair, board president of the Center for biography and social art, where which is the place where the training for biography and social art happens in North America. So any of those places you can find me?
Laura Scappaticci:That's fantastic. It has been so wonderful to talk with you. I feel I'm just like looking forward to my day and the little you know, watching out for the miracle and thank you so much, Chris.